Real-world appdb
Holly Bostick
motub at planet.nl
Wed Feb 9 20:11:04 CST 2005
Jonathan Ernst wrote:
> Thanks again for your message.
Jonathan, thank YOU for your support and encouragement. And also thanks
to you and everyone helping to make a place for "the middleman" to
provide useful input, and a mechanism by which it can be heard; since
the appdb wasn't really functional, there was not much point in using
it... now there is. Good Lord, it's turning into a real information
production line! Woo-hoo!
>
> Le lundi 07 février 2005 à 01:16 +0100, Holly Bostick a écrit :
>>I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
>>First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This
>
> [FIXED] I sent a patch to replace "Applications" with "Applications
> database" in www.winehq.org
>
Thanks! It's not showing yet, but I'm sure it will soon, and it will
make the menu choice somewhat more understandable to many users, I think.
EDIT: Now it's there. It does clarify the entry nicely.
>>front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall),
>
> [NOT FIXED] We have to discuss it and make changes to this first page.
> Paint and other applications are here because peole voted for it (i.e.
> the list is generated automatically).
Fair enough....but when were these applications actually voted for (is
the list outdated), and how do you actually vote, anyway? I understand
that on previous visits to the appdb, I wasn't logged in, so was unable
to vote (does that make sense, btw? Shades of Transgaming...), but now I
am logged in and I don't see any method on the front page to actually
vote for an application-- nor, in fact, what voting for an application
actually accomplishes.
The applications listed as Gold and Silver are apps which meet both of
the following conditions (I'm working this out as I type) 1) they work
out of the box or with minor modifications (neither of which is a
votable condition, the condition either exists or doesn't) and 2) they
have been voted as a "Favorite" by users.
Fine (if that's the case), but we care because why, exactly? If WinZip
is the favorite "works perfectly out of the box" application among users
(whenever these users may have actually voted, since I can't seem to
vote *today*, but we'll get to that), well, what does it get us to have
that on the front page?
Leaving aside the fact that there is no real reason to even run WinZip
under Wine (given that zip is provided by default with every
distribution, so *.zip files are already handled, WinZip doesn't handle
*.rar files or *.ace files, iirc, and in any case, both unrar and unace
are available by selection under Linux as well, so that's no excuse
either), I don't particularly care that everybody else finds that
application their favorite. Furthermore, I'm either not at the appdb at
all, or if I am, I am not looking for WinZip, *because it runs
perfectly*! Thus the only information I'm getting is that it runs
perfectly (which I already knew if I've tried to install and run it; how
likely is it that I've come to the appdb to "shop" for base utilities
like WinZip to see if they run before proceeding?), and that the
proportion of the userbase that cares enough to register and vote loves
it. Yeah, and? What "big picture" am I missing here?
As for my ability or inability to vote: Here I am on the front page of
the appdb, which shows the results of registered user votes, right?
Here's the text:
-------------------------------
Welcome
This is the Wine Application Database. From here you get info on
application compatibility with Wine. For developers, you can get
information on the APIs used in an application.
------------------------------------
Oooh, I can? Never noticed that.... sounds like it would be useful
information even for a non-coding maintainer, since I would then have a
better idea what debug channels I'd want to use in case of trouble. Must
explore later.
-------------------------------------------------
As an Application database member you enjoy some exclusive benefits like:
* Ability to Vote on Favorite Applications
-------------------------------------------------
I am logged in, thus a member, thus I should be able to vote, if there
was a way to do so, but I don't see it.
---------------------------------------------------
* Access to the Application Rating System. Rate the apps that
"Don't Suck"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Not clear. "Don't suck" in what respect? I mean, plenty of games/apps
may run fine, but still "suck" (not have been worth the trouble, which
is the primary definition of this term). But since that's not what we
mean (I suppose), what is the definition of "sucking"? Septerra Core ran
perfectly after the addition of some Registry entries (bug in both
Windows 2000 and above and Wine that Reg entries are not written), but
the Quicktime cutscenes did not play, although QT was installed.
Unfortunately, the final reward cutscene for finishing the game is (I'm
almost sure, haven't actually finished the game yet) a Quicktime movie.
Thus, the game itself runs perfectly, but you can't see the reward for
finishing it (and get the answer to the central mystery of the game).
Does that "suck" or not?
IMHO as a user, it does. In the eyes of a Wine dev, I would think it
does not (since 99% of the game code runs perfectly). So who defines
what "sucks"?
---------------------------------------------------
* Ability to customize the View of the Apps DB and Comment System
* Take Credit for your witty posts
* Ability to sign up to be an application maintainer.
* Submit new applications and versions.
We'd like to thank your for being a member and being logged in the
system. Your help in stomping out Wine issues will be greatly appreciated.
If you have screenshots or links to contribute, please browse the
database and use the AppDB interface to send us your contributions.
If you have anything else to contribute (howtos, etc.), enroll to be an
application maintainer or contact us at: appdb at winehq.org
Note that this address is not for end-user support, for end user support
please use the mailing lists or newsgroups that you'll find on the main
website.
There are 2506 applications currently in the database with Visual FoxPro
being the top voted application.
-------------------------------------------------
OK, here we come to the crux of things. Visual FoxPro is the top voted
application? Then why is WinZip first on the Gold List?
*Visual FoxPro does not even appear on the page*!!!
Oh, right.... I see (after I found out the voting mechanism, understood
what voting is supposed to be about and came back to this section of the
mail). Voted applications are the ones you most want to see working (but
are not listed on the page which discusses voting), and the applications
shown on the page are the most popular already-working applications.
It's giving me a headache, so I can't explain why that makes no sense,
but it makes no sense. What it adds up to is that the voting procedure
mentioned as a benefit of registration has no relationship to the
content of the rest of the page, which displays the results of a
different (but not specified as different) voting process, and neither
of these voting processes are carried out on the page in question. What
a mess. The quick and dirty hack that comes to mind is that these two
pieces of information (benefits of registration and results of the Gold
and Silver voting) should be on different pages. In fact, that's not a
bad idea, because then you could put the results of the "Wishlist"
voting on that page as well (assuming that the "Wishlist" remains in
force; more on that shortly), consolidating all the "user-voted" data on
one page, so we'd all know where to look for such data if we wanted it.
The word "voted" in the sentence "There are 2506 applications currently
in the database with Visual FoxPro being the top voted application." is
a link to http://appdb.winehq.org/votestats.php (also linked to by the
Top 25 link in the side menu). I followed this link under the assumption
that it would lead me to somewhere where I could vote, but it does not
appear to; there is a banner at the top of the page offering me the
ability to change the number of Top Apps to be displayed, and the
Category of Top Apps to be displayed, but no apps are actually displayed
using the default settings (25, Any).
Oh, and the Category drop-down does not contain any further entries than
"Any" so I can't change that anyway, and changing the number of apps to
be displayed has no effect either.
EDIT: This has been fixed in the time it has taken me to compose this
mail. Yay, team!
There certainly is no "Vote" option.
I then went to the Excel 2000 page (just because I knew it had votes),
and did not find any option to vote... oh, wait, there it is! Down the
side, as a new addition to the sidebar menu. Fine.... but I don't think
3 radio buttons for "No App Selected" are going to help me.
Fine, let's follow this "Voting Help" link and see if it helps.
--------------------------------------------------
Application Voting System Help
The Application Database features a voting system that allows you to
pick which 3 applications you would MOST like to see running in Wine.
Step by Step help on Voting
1. Log into the Application Database.
2. Browse to the Application you wish to add to your vote list.
3. In the sidebar, Click one of the 3 available slots, and click Vote.
4. Done!
---------------------------------------------------------
OK, now I know how to vote. A bit counter-intuitive, but I guess it will
work. The main thing I see is that these instructions (or a link
thereto) need to be on the front page of the appdb, where voting is
first discussed. The only reason I went to an application page was
because I was troubleshooting this voting procedure; any "reasonable
user", presented with the results of a poll which the page informs them
they may participate in, would expect the means of such participation to
be on the page they are currently on, and if not, that instructions to
guide them to the proper location be on the page they are on. For this
procedure, neither is the case.
The second thing I see is that I was not too far off with my "Shades of
Transgaming" comment. Yeah, right, pick the three applications I would
most like to see running under Wine. Why? What good is it going to do?
a) if the most-voted applications are unmaintained (as is Excel 2000,
which I will use as an example, since I would expect it to be highly
voted; let's pretend that we have no association with any group who has
Excel running perfectly well :-) ), just what is the mechanism for the
dev team to stop whatever they might be working on and focus on getting
*just* Excel 2000 to work? If there is no coordination (maintainer)
between the application's specific problems and the team's coding
efforts, what is the incentive for volunteers to pile on this additional
load? Are you depending on the charity of strangers (if someone cares
enough to vote, they will care enough to become a maintainer), the
charity of the dev team (to do all the footwork manually, as there is no
maintainer to apply the first layer of elbow grease), or just "hoping it
will all work itself out somehow"? If I have no reason to believe that
my voting will affect the dev teams activities, why should I bother to
register and vote?
b) if my three applications are not highly voted (which they likely
would not be, given that there are thousands of applications to choose
from, and a couple of thousand in the database), I have no option to
increase voting support (at least on the old TG forums, you could call
for a vote and get a "low-voted" application onto the monthly poll). If
I feel my vote is useless, why should I register and vote?
c) Is there really a benefit in getting specific applications working at
the cost of specific program classes (or APIs or whatever)? The reason
that I like Wine over TG is that Wine works on getting DX8 (or 9 or
whatever) working, whereas TG works on getting Morrowind working. Now as
it happens, I do play Morrowind, so that works for me, but while
Morrowind may work under Cedega, pick-your-random-DX8-game does not.
Whereas under Wine, if somebody fixes (I dunno) dinput.dll, then
*everything* that broke because it wasn't working gets fixed. Which
ultimately works out better for me, because I have a much better chance
of running *anything* I might choose to run, instead of being locked
into one game or app that has been specifically hacked into working
because everybody voted for it (but none of the other apps or games I
might want to run actually do, because the hacks were specific to the
one game or app rather than general).
d) My impression has always been that the voting mechanism for TG has
been a somewhat desperate attempt to add value for the forced
subscription; collecting votes for your particular application is an
effort to essentially "force" TG to direct the devs in their employ {who
are presumably paid with the money you already gave TG) to use their
time to hack your application to a working status, thereby allowing you
to get value from what you already paid for, so that you will happily
continue to subscribe (hopefully; it's a pretty thin hypothesis, but
it's all a subscriber has to hold on to in order to justify this
purchase). The only reason I believe that voting on TG's site does
anything at all is because money is involved-- and the reason I believe
it's really wishful thinking on my part is because I'm the only one
giving money away. Let's face it, they're basically saying "buy our
coffeemaker, and if you vote, we will 'enable' it to make (Special Blend
Columbian Roast) coffee for you". My money is already gone if I have
stupidly bought a product that doesn't necessarily do what it says on
the tin in the first place, so why should I believe that the
manufacturer is actually honorable enough to keep more of their
"carrot-and-stick" promises?
I mention this only because at least there I can find a (very tenuous)
logical chain of incentive to vote. I don't see what motivation my
voting gives to the Wine devs (who's going to "force" them to stop
working on whatever they're interested in and work on Uru: Ages Beyond
Myst?), and because of that, I don't see what is the incentive for me to
vote, or in fact what is the purpose of this entire voting business. Is
it possibly an implementation of an idea that was obsoleted by later
changes in the project's direction? If not, it needs to be made much
clearer what function it serves within the "project production line".
----------------------------------------------------------------
Voting System Notes
* Please seriously only vote for applications which will benefit
the community. Don't vote for applications that are known to work well.
We know Solitaire works. Voting for it would not make much sense.
* When voting for an application, you are voting for ALL its
various versions. There is a separate system in place for ranking versions.
* You can clear your vote at anytime. Simply browse to any
application in the database, select the slot you want to clear, and
click the Clear button.
--------------------------------------------------------
"* Please seriously only vote for applications which will benefit the
community."
In the judgement of whom? Which community, for that matter? Many feel
that improving the ability to run your previously-purchased Windows
games will encourage migration for home users; naturally, improving the
ability to run various office-centered applications will stimulate and
encourage enterprise and small business migration. Users from either
group will not really have any overview of benefit to "the community" as
a whole, since they are most likely new users, who 1) have no experience
with "the community", and 2) may often run Windows applications under
Wine for which there is a native alternative simply because they are
unfamiliar with Linux and with the operation of the alternative, and so
prefer to stick with "the devil they know" (thus, they know even less
about the community than they might otherwise, because they are not
participating in it fully, but instead using Wine as a "buffer zone" to
avoid it).
Furthermore, most users probably don't care anyway. I myself don't care
if getting Icewind Dale running "benefits the community"; it benefits
*me*, and the community of which I am a member is benefited only by
extension. Getting it running does enable me to provide information to
those members of the community that have an interest in about Icewind
Dale, which I do care about, but I'm not sure that my caring to
contribute helpful information to the community has any relationship to
this particular decision of whether to vote for this specific
application or not.
I mean, fine, if I was really going to vote for applications that will
benefit the community, I would be voting for some DTP app (many feel
that Scribus is just not there yet), some audio recording app (I'm sure
we've all heard the stories of attempting professional audio
manipulation under Linux) and I guess Photoshop (since many say that The
Gimp is very nice, but just not as good). That's what would be of most
benefit to the community, based on my knowledge of the community. But I
do not do DTP, or record professional audio, or do graphics
manipulation-- and I am not so selfless that I am going to vote for 3
applications that are of great use to the community, but no use to me
personally.
I find this request stress-inducing and vaguely antagonistic. I
understand that users should be warned not to vote frivolously, but I
don't think this is quite the way it should be phrased (though the
"correct" phrasing is not leaping to my mind ;-) )
>
>>What I would have found more useful on what is essentially the
>>"overview" page is some indication as to whether the problems with the
>>application that I am consulting the app database about are known
>
> [FIXED] Application overview contains a general description of
> application but version-specific pages (should) contains the
> informations you are requesting and new templates are trying to enforce
> that. Yes you have to click once more on your version but it is normal
> imho as each versions has it's specific problems and the summarry under
> the main overview tells you already if an application is Gold, Silver,
> Bronze or Garbage.
Indeed, fixed, I checked the page for Fallout, which is maintained, and
it looks both "very nice indeed" and "helpful"!!! Looking forward to
this month's release, since I have not installed Fallout in months due
to this issue (and I'd like to finish the game; I was enjoying it).
>
>>1.4) The big "Become a super maintainer" link/button is nice
>
> [FIXED] Please report back if you think otherwise.
Yes, it works now. The "Add Version" button is nice, too.
>
>>1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
>>"maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer".
>
> [FIXED/NOT FIXED] These informations are shown after clicking on the
> button. But we discussed the possibility to add a "?" sign near the
> button that will bring you to the related help page.
Yes, so they are (after you reassured me, I clicked the button). On the
whole, I find the information good, but not very detailed or complete.
Here again, is the text:
---------------------------------------------------
This page is for submitting a request to become an application
maintainer. An application maintainer is someone who runs the
application regularly and who is willing to be active in reporting
regressions with newer versions of Wine and to help other users run this
application under Wine.
Being an application maintainer comes with responsibilities.
You are expected to:
# Keep the application comments clean, all stale data should be removed
# Be an active user of that application and version
# Keep up-to-date with all Wine releases, if there are regressions they
should be reported to wine-devel
You will:
# Receive an email anytime a comment is posted or deleted for the
application or the application information is modified
We ask that all maintainers explain why they want to be an application
maintainer, why they think they will do a good job and a little about
their experience with Wine. This is both to give you time to think about
whether you really want to be an application maintainer and also for the
appdb admins to identify people that are best suited for the job. Your
request may be denied if there are already a handful of maintainers for
this application or if you don't have the experience with Wine that is
necessary to help other users out.
---------------------------------------------------
No problems with the text relating to how to maintain the appdb entry
itself (keep the comments clean, etc), but "be an active user of that
application and version", and "if there are regressions, they should be
reported to Wine-devel"?
That says absolutely nothing to an "advanced user" such as myself, because
"Be an active user of that application and version." Fine, if I was the
maintainer of Excel 2000, I should have Excel 2000 installed, or have
attempted to install it (if that failed), and presumably I should write
my experience doing that in the description.... but I'm just guessing
that last part, because the requirements do not specify that. I am aware
that the Mainatiner Rules are still under revision, but this is a bit
too minimalist even for me :-) .
But here's my real problem: "Keep up-to-date with all Wine releases, if
there are regressions they should be reported to wine-devel."
From both my own sense of self and your encouragement, I am fairly
certain I am capable of meeting this requirement--- *but I don't know how*!
I've hung around Wine-users and wine-devel long enough to know what
regression testing is, and the very most basic level of what it involves
(compiling CVS from the date of the "broken" release, then going
backwards in CVS by day to find the date where the program works again,
and then testing the patches committed on that day to find out which one
breaks the program)-- but I have no practical knowledge of how to do any
of the tasks required to perform this procedure (compile multiple
versions of Wine on the same system, keep the configs separate, patch
individually or revert a specific patch, etc).
I also do not know how to run the debug channels (assuming I installed a
package that even has debug, since some packages do differentiate
between "regular" and "nodebug") in order to create useful traceback
logs, nor do I know how to choose which channels to run for any
particular app or presenting issue ("all" creates giant logs from what I
hear, most of which is not needed).
And lastly, I do not know how to submit the information to wine-devel so
that it will be "proper", whatever that means; I know that "we" don't so
much use Bugzilla for such things, but should there not be a
wine-maintainers list or some such? It seems to me that just sending a
regular email to the wine-devel list might well result in it either
being considered "noise", or just getting lost in the mix.
In any case, I do feel that if such technical procedures are to be
required of me, I should have access to some instructions on how to
perform them before making the committment, so that I can adequately
judge whether or not I can fulfill the responsibilities I am considering
taking on.
EDIT: After writing this, I was reading mail on the wine-users list
which mentioned a very similar problem (with something of a solution).
In the "Re: [Wine]Invisible Menu Items in Wavelab [was: Problems
starting Wavelab]" thread, Shayne O'Connor said:
"i haven't been able to find a good debugging
how-to for wine ... any suggestions?"
And Mark Knecht answered:
"Well, the Wine Userr's guide gives some good instructions but you need
to be pretty interested in learning before you delve in.
http://www.winehq.com/site/docs/wine-user/bugs
You can learn about debug channels in other parts of the same
document. It's interesting (sort of...) that all this capability is
there, but also frustrating as it feels like you have to get a
programming degree to even get started."
So at least I know where to look for the information, even if it looks
like there's a good chance I won't understand it immediately. But we'll see.
This is not really a hopeful omen, though: one user indicating that the
information on debugging is not easily found, and another indicating
that, when found, the information is not easily understood. That kind of
comment would be raising orange flags in my book (not the kind of thing
I would want to hear my users/customers/people I'm supposed to be
servicing saying about the instructions I'd provided), and so you may
not be surprised if there's a "Real-world debugging docs" in your near
future :-) .
>>which usually should not be run at lower versions if a patch (which
>>increases the version while repairing errors) is available. So there is
>>in some ways no reason to maintain version "1.0" when no one should
>>actually be *running* version 1.0 other than immediately after install,
>
> [WONT FIX] We cannot handle different behaviour for games and other
> categories. As you said it yourself there are cases when it makes sense
> to maintain separate version. If it makes no sense it's the duty of the
> app or version maintainer to rename his version (for example 1.x instead
> of haveing version 1.1 and version 1.2 if their behaviour is the same).
>
OK, that's a good alternative, but this should be mentioned in the
Maintainer's Guidebook (if it isn't, haven't checked yet), since I
wouldn't have known to do that if you hadn't just told me, and even had
I thought of it, I wouldn't have known it was "OK to do".
>>1.5) Comments are not being counted properly on the main overview page;
>
> [FIXED] I sent a patch for this as well. Thank you for reporting.
>
Thanks! It doesn't show yet either, but it's still cool :-) .
EDIT: It's fixed. Hoorah!
>
>>I'd really like to see forums or at least some kind of PM system
>
> [FIXED] Maintainers, Supermaintainers and Administrators receive e-mail
> telling them an user made a comment in applications they maintain. If
> the comment is in reply to another comment the other people in the
> thread receive the email as well.
Yes, I saw that in the explanation of maintainer duties and privileges.
This doesn't so much reassure the users, though (i.e., they will not
know that their comment will be "mentioned" to the maintainer unless
they have read the maintainer's information notes. A note to this effect
that an "average" non-maintainer user will see as well might be useful.
>
>>Comments should also require the specification of the Wine version, the
>>distribution under which it is used, and the type of install
>>(self-compiled from source, distribution repository package, or Wine
>>distribution package; I have visions of a radio button) to be attached
>>to the comment, as new users often don't know to include this
>>information, but it's pretty hard to answer many questions without
>>having this information (so one has to ask, which wastes time and space).
>
> [NOT FIXED] Good idea. Might be worth implementing it.
I hope you do; imagining trying to field questions from users of a
popular app such as HL2 (when that DX9 work is done) as the maintainer
(not that I would ever volunteer to maintain HL2; I'm not a lunatic) and
having to ask each and every posting user what these specs were, is the
stuff of nightmares to me. Have a heart.
>
>>A Wine FAQ at the forefront of the appdb, or even linked to each
>>application's overview page might be nice, too
>
> [NOT FIXED] Good idea too. Might be worth implementing it in the help system.
>
>>Somebody's going to say I should write a FAQ myself and submit it as a
>>patch, aren't they? Yes, OK, but let me finish this mail first ;-) .
>
> Are you thinking to do that ?
Naturally I am. I wouldn't be a very good and responsible member of the
FOSS community if I wasn't (and it's important to me to be a good and
responsible member of the FOSS community). I haven't started the text
yet, though (a bit short on time), and I have a technical problem in
that I don't know how to format or submit the text when done (or at
least drafted). I keep hearing "submit a patch", but I really don't know
how to do that for non-code text or HTML (I don't know how to do it for
code either, but I assume that if I could code, I *would* know).
But OK, now that I think of it, a couple of people have submitted
documentation updates in the past several weeks; I'll check through my
email and see how they did it.
>
>>1.7) Descriptions are really not very useful, for several reasons.
>
> This should be fixed by maintainers.
Fair enough, but what about all the applications that do not have
maintainers? They remain in disarray until someone steps up, if someone
does? If the appdb needs a "spring cleaning", somebody has to make a
start, and if there are no maintainers available to do so, does it then
not become the responsibility of the admin (if there is such a beast)?
>
>>1.8) (or, "On the road again") Off to the Baldur's Gate page, then...
>>Back button to the subcategory (Games=>Role-Playing; thank heavens
>>they're the same type), follow a new link to the Baldur's Gate page...
>>I'm ranging far afield now, but in this case, that's OK. I have BG as
>>well, but haven't installed it yet, so it's useful for me to look at the
>>page anyway. Luckily. Because if I didn't have BG, I would now be
>>traveling to the page of a completely different application in which I
>>had no interest, with no assurance that what I find there will be of any
>>use to me. In that case, I'd probaly be pretty bloody pissed off by now,
>>given that I would have spent a fair amount of time trailing around the
>>appdb without being so much as a single step closer to solving my actual
>>problem with the original application, or even having it confirmed as a
>>known problem, or receiving a clue that implied "user error", or
>>anything whatsoever that would give me a troubleshooting or solution
>>trail. http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=157 if you'd like to
>>come with me.
>>
>
> Hmm not sur I understood you on this one.
What I'm saying here is that I started out looking for a solution for
problems with installing an expansion for Icewind Dale on one page. Not
only did I find no mention of my problem on the most relevant page, I
also found no mention of the version evidencing the problem, after
following five links to reach this page in the first place.
The only information I did find on that page that had any hope of
providing a solution to my actual problem was that I should go to
another application's page (the Baldur's Gate page, to which no link was
provided), because that game was related (in an unspecified way as far
as Wine is concerned) to Icewind Dale, and the solutions for (also
unspecified) problems that Baldur's Gate users were having might also
apply to Icewind Dale.
As it happens, because I also have Baldur's Gate, going to the Baldur's
Gate page was useful in itself. However, let us presume I did *not* also
have Baldur's Gate.
In this case, after following five links to reach the application page
for Icewind Dale, where no solution to, or in fact mention of, my
problem was found, I am being suggested to redirect (manually) to the
application page for a completely different application (Baldur's Gate)
than the one I wanted to know about. Because (in this hypothetical
situation) I do not have Baldur's Gate, I have no interest in being on
the Baldur's Gate page; I can't install what I don't have, thus I have
no interest in knowing about the problems of this new application.
However, I am nonetheless going to this 6th page, which I have no
interest in or use for, simply because this game that I do not have is
in some way related to the one I do have, and related in a way that
means nothing to me as a normal user, since the relationship between
Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate is not explained in the context of what
we're dealing with (Wine). So what if IWD "uses a modified Baldur's Gate
engine"? What does that mean to Wine, and why does that mean that the
Baldur's Gate page might serve some purpose for me when I don't in fact
have Baldur's Gate, but Icewind Dale?
I don't know, because I am an "average, non-technically-inclined" user
who is just trying to get IWD:HoW to install, but nonetheless, I am
expending further manual effort (since there is no direct link) to reach
this new page that I have no interest in on its own account. I am doing
this because this new page *may* contain information relating to my
problem with the application I actually have-- but I won't know until I
get there, and read the issues with this other application and see if
any of them are the same as the ones I am having with the application I
am actually using.
I recognize that the maintainer is responsible for making this somewhat
more tidy, and there is atm no maintainer for this application to clean
it up.
I was only pointing out that this particular entry (and possibly others;
I can't check them all), was originally posted in the most circular and
frankly infuriating manner possible. Windows migrators who are used to
getting to some kind of useful information (or being told definitively
that such useful information does not exist) in one or two clicks would
have left the appdb long ago, especially since any such user is already
angry and impatient after having attempted to install their application
and failing, and this entire unneccesarily extended journey through the
appdb is essentially a distraction from what they originally wanted to
do (which was play Icewind Dale with the expansion pack). So the fact
that this journey *is* unnecessarily extended (by sending me to vaguely
related pages) is bad, because if one must be distracted, one strongly
prefers that such distractions be as short as possible.
If the help exists, it should be presented as soon as possible. If the
help does not exist, that should be said as soon as possible. But
entries that dick you around (excuse my French) with vague hope ("the
concrete help you're looking for may possibly be found in the far
reaches of Timbuktu; travel there and perhaps the mystery shall be
revealed unto you") should absolutely not be accepted as valid, and
frankly do somewhat more harm than good to the appdb's reputation if
left as they are until a maintainer steps up to fix them, because that
was a really tedious runaround for no gain whatsoever (the Baldur's Gate
page did not help me either).
>>1.10) *this application is not listed in the appdb*
>
> You won't find every application and version in the appdb, nor every fix and problem. That's why you as an user can:
> - submit applications and versions
> - submit screenshots
> - submit how-tos, notes and comments
> - modify application and version description (maintainer)
> - etc.
>
Yes, that's true. But now we're coming to another important issue:
Publicity. Who really knows about the appdb (meaning in terms of Wine
users)?
You need the user community to step up, and in a (very) big way,
participating both as users and maintainers, but how are they to even
know that they should do so?
What would really help here is the equivalent of a "Grand Opening" bash,
complete with marching band. Maybe I should see if I can submit
something to OSNews (they seem to take all kinds of ...stuff... which is
often consdidered much less useful, if the user comments after many
articles are to be believed), or some similar missive. What I'm thinking
of is widely-announced news that these resources are available, and
making people aware that they can contribute to them (and should), no
matter their level of expertise. Anybody can make a screenshot, and even
that helps to make users having trouble with an app feel better (it
*can* work; somebody got it running long enough to take a screenie;
*there is hope*). And once someone has been able to help in even a small
way-- often when they thought there was nothing they could contribute--
it can easily lead to more significant contributions. If they contribute
a screenie, they might stay long enough to notice and read the debugging
docs. And once they do that, they can try to help by submitting
tracebacks for the stuff they can't get working, and help get it fixed.
But an acorn doesn't become a mighty oak if no one plants the seed. And
of course, this will all fall flat if the appdb backend is not in
place/stable, so maybe that should be confirmed before I get all excited
:-D .
> You seem to know how to make many application run fine, why don't you
> share this knowlege with other appdb users ? You'll make the appdb more
> usefull for many and so more people will come and visit the appdb. Some
> of these new users you attracted might know more than you on
> applications you failed to make to run and might decide to contribute
> as you did. That way everybody will benefit.
Yes, of course I will do that; although Wine self-destructed on me two
days ago, so I have to reinstall everything I did have running, but at
least I can document it this time around.
But I don't agree that simply making the appdb more useful will
encourage more people to use it-- many who have already written it off
(and told others to do so), will need a big "New! Improved!!" sticker on
the thing before they bother to come back and pitch in, and many likely
don't even know of its existence in the first place.
>
>>Also not listed are the Baldur's Gate expansion, "Tales of the Sword
>>Coast", and the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion "Throne of Bhaal"
>
> Please submit thes new versions or application if you can.
Yes, just as soon as I get them installed.
>>Fine, I'm stopped cold with this issue, let's stop quickly by the
>>Icewind Dale 2 page ( http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=1033 )
>>and see if there's help for me there;
>>according to the description, I am supposed to be
>>able to install this, as long as I have an insanely old version of Wine
>>(the original description was penned by someone installing under
>>20020904!), which I don't.
>
> The fact that someone reported that an application worked fine with
> Wine 20020904 doesn't mean it won't run with a newer version. On the
> opposite, regressions are not so common in Wine nowadays and if you or
> any user finds out that an application which was working with an older
> version of wine doesn't work anymore you can just send an e-mail to
> wine-devel to spot the regression. On the other hand if you find an old
> comment like this and can confirm that it still works using the current
> Wine version, you can tell others by adding a comment or modifying the
> description (please keep an history of reported Wine-version tested) if
> you are a maintainer.
Yes, got it-- fortunately, I do believe I have some older versions of
Wine stored as backups from sometime last year (probably at least 6
months ago), and I know that this used to work (as I still have
savegames from playing under Wine last year). I might be able to narrow
the "where did it break?" gap to within a couple of months (or closer),
rather than the current gap of a year and a half, which would be
something, at least.
>
>>2.3) I'll try the workaround listed in the description, but...
>>
>>If the workaround doesn't work, I will probably dig up my backup of my
>>last installed and updated Win98-- which I cleverly saved all the
>>system files from before blowing it away, for just such an eventuality--
>>and "taint" my Wine installation by copying over the "real"
>>InstallShield files to the fake windows Common Files. This will probably
>>work-- it has in the past-- but I was really hoping to run 'pure' Wine
>>this time around. It has so been improving by leaps and bounds lately.
>
> If you take time to investigate this you might then report back in the
> appdb so that next user will have mor luck than you had in the first
> place.
Yes, of course-- I will probably maintain this application (and IWD2) if
no one beats me to it (as if there's a line of eager supplicants before
me!) before I get my "tracking system" in place.
The only thing that concerns me in terms of my "hack" being the
"semi-official way to get it working" is that everybody may not have
Win98 InstallShield files, I don't know if this will even work with the
analagous files from 2000 or XP (I had Windows 2000 but didn't save the
files, and I've never had or intend to have XP), and on the whole, I'd
really rather see if I can track the issue down with the devs, or
whether a new release will solve the problem itself-- I know some devs
have been working on Installshield recently, but I would have thought
that they were likely concerned with a newer iteration than the one
here, which, to be honest, I don't even know why it should be broken,
since it is fairly old as Installshield goes (Icewind Dale was released
in 2000, the Heart of Winter expansion in 2001).
>
>>
>>Let's see if things are any better in the Applications section. My issue
>>here is that I need to burn some CloneCD images.
>>
>>I have already tried to install both programs; CloneCD installed without
>>problems, but would not run, starting the debugger immediately with an
>>error in the 32-bit code-- I would like to find out why, and if there is
>>a solution. I then tried to install Nero 6.3, but clicking either the
>>Nero 6-only setup button or the "install suite" button on the autorun
>>dialog blinked and returned me to the autorun dialog-- I'd like a
>>solution, if I cannot get CloneCD to run (which I don't think I can).
>
> This kind of informations would be very usefull to other appdb users.
Yes, I suppose in the absence of concrete solutions, a confirmation of
the problem is better than nothing, and I will provide that to the appdb
within the week. But I would rather help work towards a solution, or be
able to definitively pass along the information that the problems are
(currently or permanently) insoluble, but that means going through those
debugging docs.
However, it does also remind me of another question I had: I know we
don't "care" about TG, and afaik, many of the Wine devs actually work
for Codeweavers, but I also have a copy of Cedega and I can download the
CXOffice demo (can't afford to buy even the Standard, sadly).
I have tried some 'limited triangulation'; for instance, under Wine
Icewind Dale Heart of Winter bombed before the Installshield even
extracted fully, but under Cedega got far enough to claim that IWD was
not installed (so the installer exited gracefully). Now, I can guess why
that happened (Registry issue; TG seems to put per-application entries
in the program folder, which the expansion is not going to find, God
only knows what the point of doing it that way is), besides which we
don't care about TG in any case, and plus this is an Installshield
issue, and their implementation is under a different licence than
Wine's, so we can't look at it and see what's going on anyway. But if I
downloaded the CX demo, I could try it there, too, and see what the
differences are, giving me 3 points of triangulation (since "we"
--meaning you devs-- do know the specifics of the Wine and CX code, if
not the TG).
Would reporting (to the dev list, or maintainer's list, not the appdb)
how the same application behaves differently under the variants be of
any use in more speedily finding the likely location of a problem with
that application in Wine?
>>4.1) Hey, the first app I've looked at in this db with a "native
>>alternative" link. Nice, but I'm not reading the description anyway
>>
>>I'd be much more likely to see it then (if I didn't know about K3b already).
>
> [FIXED] It's now possible (again) to add applicatin specific links in the place you mention.
>
Yeah, and I like the great big can't-miss-it recursive link above the
comments on the version page, too.
> Thanks again, I'd be happy to see you reporting back.
> Jonathan
Thanks again for caring :-) -- this is thus the 'reporting back'. I've
pretty much got my work cut out for me in terms of 1) reinstalling Wine
2) documenting the apps that I have working 3) posting comments to the
appdb and taking on some maintainer's duties for at least a couple of
them, but I would appreciate input on how to proceed with a) drumming up
some publicity that you guys have really made some wonderful
improvements and the disenchanted should drop by and pitch in, and b)
providing viable information to the devs in order to tackle some of the
problem applications I have tried to install or run.
I really appreciate this opportunity to contribute-- and in case I
haven't said lately, you guys are doing a great job. Thank you all very
much for Wine and all the related infrastructure.
Holly
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