#winehq admin troubles

[feba thatl]

>The line above is very important. I think it had to be sent to the channel.
>Please imagine yourself saying:

>(09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, this will not help, as 0.9.47 and 0.9.48 are
>still broken for most Source games.

See, exactly. There is no reason to kick someone for making a comment
and trying to help someone. If he had said that, or even just said
"Usrl, please shut up and just let me handle this." I wouldn't really
see a problem with it. It's the fact that I was banned for
recommending to someone to add the wine repos to their sources and
then asking why I was kicked that I find unacceptable.

>If, however, you come in with a know-it-all attitude and try arguing
>with him or giving out tips which are known to be erroneous,

That's exactly the thing. Even by Vitamin's own admission above, I
only said a few lines, none of which had a 'know-it-all' attitude
about them, and obviously I didn't think they were wrong. Worse
though, he didn't explain why they were wrong, or even that they were
wrong. And the thing is, this is the same advice Vitamin gave me
rather rudely a couple months ago, that my wine version was out of
date, and to get a more recent version. I was trying to help this
person, who again had been complaining about people being mean to
them.

I didn't argue with him a peep. I recommended to someone that they do
such a thing to upgrade Wine, stated that keeping upgraded is good
anyway, and then was kicked. I came back and asked why, and was
banned, as far as I can tell with no expiry date. I don't know what
the other user was kicked for, but I can't imagine it was much more
severe.

I'd really like those of you who claim I'm lying or not telling the
entire truth to stop though. I told the entire truth, I went in to try
to be nice to someone who felt like they were being treated harshly, I
made a couple innocent comments, and was kicked. I came back, asked
why, and was banned. Nowhere in there was I asked politely to refrain
from anything, or even warned for that matter.

I want to make it clear though, this is not entirely about Vitamin.
While I do find that his actions are unacceptable for what is probably
the first place a lot of Wine users go for help, I don't think it's
entirely his fault. It's also, like as mentioned above, probably
because he has to deal with a lot of crap in IRC because he feels like
he has to help everyone. I feel the same in other places, and I don't
think I can honestly say that I wouldn't abuse power if it was given
to me. I have no doubt that he has contributed much to the project and
helped many users.

The problem I see is that there does not seem to be any rules or
requirements for admin actions. This can be a good thing, but when
you're kicking people who are just trying to be helpful, without
warning or explanation, it isn't.

>If you come to #winehq with a question and a helpful attitude, Vitamin
>will usually do his best to try and troubleshoot the issue, and he is
>quite cordial while doing it.

Yes, I don't doubt this. Like I said, just last night I had a very
civil conversation with him, and he did try to help. Obviously if he
did nothing but sit around and ban people, there would be more
discussion of this than there is. I am not saying that he is horrible
or should have his op rights removed, just that there needs to be some
basic treatments established for handling people. Again, a ban without
a polite request to stop, a warning, or even an explanation, strikes
most people as not only very rude, but also just confusing.

>people who get kicked never seem to understand
>that they fit this negative, unhelpful mold all too well.

Perhaps it's because nobody ever brought it to their attention? Still,
I'd rather see someone who is sincerely trying to help get it wrong
than someone who can solve it in a heartbeat who kicks the people they
are helping when they don't like the answers they're getting.

Again, you have to consider, if your mother needed Wine support, is
#winehq really a place you think she'd find helpful? Ignoring the
mothers with computer science degrees, many probably wouldn't have a
clue what they're doing. It can be annoying, of course, but that comes
with being a channel that's supposed to support end users. This is not
to say I disagree with banning people who are rude to the people
trying to help them, the above mentioned 4 out of 5 people, just that
there need to be more guidelines on when and why someone can be kicked
or banned.