AppDB: Rating / Patching

Mon Jan 5 16:51:21 CST 2009

Hi,

I started a discussion inside AppDB about the in my eyes "strange"
Gold rating of Fallout 3 (it's actually just an example, other entries
suffer the same problems). I know there was a discussion about the
rating on this list last month, but as far as I could see my
particular issue wasn't covered and I only just subscribed. So here
goes a new thread.

The appdb thread [1] is included below (prevent OT-cleanup deletion
inside appdb). I don't expect anyone to read it completely, but I
didn't want to repeat every argument again either. ;)

The basic point is: Fallout 3 (a game) only works with a small -- but
nevertheless -- patch, otherwise it will crash, no matter what
dll-overrides/settings/3rd-party apps.

From how I understand the wording in [2], an app that requires a patch
to run, can't get a gold rating. In fact, if there is no way to get it
working in a vanilla wine release, then there is no other option than
"Garbage" IMO. The various arguments for that assumption (possible
breaking of other apps run by the same wine installation, regression
tracking, etc.) are in the quote below.

The maintainer tried to convince me that a gold rating is valid,
because Fallout 3 works great with the patch applied. Well obviously
he failed, and the discussion went away from Fallout in particular to
a more general interpretation of [2]. I'm neither saying I'm right and
he's wrong, nor the other way around. IMO both interpretation can be
valid, depending on how you read "some DLL overrides, other settings
or third party software."

My suggestion now would be:
* Clarify the wording on what "other settings" really means (my
interpretation is mainly registry modifications with winecfg and/or
regedit).

* Add an explicit statement about patched wine versions. Something like:
 - Any application that requires a patched wine to run MUST NOT be
rated higher than "Garbage"
(or whatever rating was intended for this situation).

[1] http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=14322#Comment-44631
[2] http://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings

Björn

==== Copy from AppDB discussion [1] below ====

Björn Krombholz on Monday January 5th 2009, 10:10:
Hi,

I don't understand the recent ratings. I've played the game a lot
under Windows and with various versions of wine, using all kinds of
different tweaks and settings the game itself and wine offer. It runs
pretty well and it's become even better (meaning faster) since 1.11
(no evidence, could be caused by a driver update as well).

Nevertheless, as far as I can see, noone has ever managed to get past
menu + the loading screen without at least applying the D3D patch
attached to [1], that allows setting the VideoDescription and
VideoDriver in the registry. For flawless mouse interaction, you also
need the mouse hack from [2].

Considering these 2 as a fact (please correct me, if there actually is
a way to run it without patches), how can it ever be rated higher than
"Garbage"? My understanding of the ratings are, that they offer a
quick hint on what you are able to run (nearly) without problems,
while the discussion and howto sections deal with "broken" stuff and
tell a user, how he might be able to run an app/game despite the
garbage state.

[1] http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15839
[2] http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971

-----

RE: Rating / Patching
by Tymoteusz Paul on Monday January 5th 2009, 10:20
Let me explain you how ranking system works, because you seem to have
it confused.
As expalined in
http://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings gold/silver
rating is ok as long as you can use it for it's purpose. All you have
to do is override couple dlls and settings and then the game is
working pretty much flawlessy.
Garbage rating would be then if it was impossible to play the game.

Ratings as is provide good info about the game, if you see that its
rated as gold - then you are safe to buy it for linux playig, it may
take some work to get it work but it will work and will be playable.
Only rating that fits your description "hint on what you are able to
run (nearly) without problems" fits platinum rating, which this game
didn't get so far.

Hope this will be more clear for you now.

-----

RE: Rating / Patching
by Björn Krombholz on Monday January 5th 2009, 14:08
I was referring to this help text as well, although I read it differently. ;)

In any vanilla/clean release version of wine, Fallout 3 won't run. You
get the menu, can change settings, but when you start the game to play
("purpose it was designed") it crashes, even "with some DLL overrides,
other settings or third party software" you install in wine. =>
Garbage rating.

Let's imagine the small driver patch in bug 15839 was applied to the
development tree and so released with 1.1.13. The game would become
playable with one major "issue". No matter what settings you
change/etc. the mouse is either always stuck in the middle of the
screen or it gets stuck at the screen edges (bug 9671). => Bronze
rating for wine >= 1.1.13.
Maybe even Silver, as it might work very well with a different kind of
controller like a gamepad.

Now the mouse bug gets fixed in 1.1.x. Suddenly all you need to do is
to override some (actually just one) dlls and tweak some settings to
make it enjoyable. => Silver (in case you consider Live functionality
an important part of the program) or Gold rating.

Eventually someone adds the d3dx9_38.dll to wine and the DeviceDriver
+ DeviceDescription settings will be automatically detected by wine.
That means the game works flawlessly without touching any wine
setting. => Platinum rating.

IMO this makes sense, otherwise a version 1.1.x gold app, wouldn't be
downgradable in its rating for 1.1.x+1 (in case version x+1 introduced
a regression that breaks this app); because all you had to do to make
it work again is unapply the faulty patch.

In addition to that, users wouldn't be encouraged to file a bug report
if there is source-patch that upgrades it to gold anyway.

Anyway, I don't care much about which interpretation should be used, I
just want it to be more consistent. As you can see in the reports
history Fallout 3 people rated in both ways. E.g., the newest one
voting gold, because it works great after patching according to the
HOWTO; http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=14322&iTestingId=33522
rating "Garbage" because "Mouse is borked and gameplay is impossible
without patches.

Which would be the best way to ask for a more indisputable explanation
on the help page? Filing a bug report against appdb or using the
"Email Us" link at the right, or ...?

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RE: Rating / Patching
by Radosław Ciechowski on Monday January 5th 2009, 15:15
Gold is for apps that "Works flawlessly with DLL overrides, third
party software or other settings" so if Fallout 3 is working without
bugs after applaying patches, dll-s and other settings it should be
rated Gold. If there was no way to get it working or there were lots
of bugs after all tweaks, then it could be rated Garbage. If game
works flawlessly then no matter how mamy things you have to do, it can
be rated Gold which makes sense for me. There is no sense in rating
apps Garbage when they can work flawlessly ! Also there is already
rating system which we are using (
http://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings ) and changing
it now wouldnt be a good idea.

-----

RE: Rating / Patching
by Björn Krombholz on Monday January 5th 2009, 15:55
> Gold is for apps that "Works flawlessly with DLL overrides, third party software or other settings" <

Indeed, that's what I'm saying. But applying a patch to the wine
source and recompiling it -- which effectively makes it some
_different_ version than the _release_ version you are supposed to
rate -- is neither of those 3.

- "DLL override": installing a custom DLL into $WINEPREFIX and adding
the override)
- "third party software": installing additional software into
$WINEPREFIX that is needed and expected by the app you want to run
- "other settings": tweak the wine registry and similar configuration

None of these change the wine version, any such change would still be
a "wine 1.1.x", while patches like the mouse patch might even break
other software even if those are installed in a different $WINEPREFIX,
because the binary changed and it's behaviour is different from the
official release.

You can't say "A is running well on wine 1.1.x", if in fact it is
running well on wine 1.1.x+patch, while it actually breaks on wine
1.1.x.

And yes, as I already said, there is a help page for the rating
system. I don't ask to change, but to clarify it, as at the moment
people are rating differently depending on their interpretation.

This has become OT on this page - I will try to move it to the -devel list. :)