10 July 2003
Interview with Jukka Heinonen by Brian Vincent

This is our 9th interview with Wine developers. Check out the Interviews page for previous ones.

Jukka Heinonen lives in Helsinki, Finland and works as a software engineer for a medium sized Finnish company. He's also working on a Masters degree in physics at the University of Helsinki. He still has a few courses left but admits he gets too easily bored to go in for something for longer periods of time. In his spare time he enjoys reading and working on a RoboCup team "that really is years away from being able to compete against even beer cans" .

BV: How did you get involved with Wine?

Jukka: Well, it all began when my big brother gave me a huge pile of Windows and DOS games. Since I only had a single computer which had Linux in it and I was not eager to install Windows only for playing games, I thought it would be a good idea to see whether I could get some of those games running under Linux using some kind of emulator. And my surprise was great when I found out that you could play Fallout using Wine without more than a little bit of tweaking...

BV: Do you remember the first patch you submitted?

Jukka: It had probably something to do with Fallout and Windows asynchronous keyboard state polling functions. Or it could have been some patch about mouse grabbing in full screen direct draw windows, which was probably the first regression I had to fix in order to keep Fallout playable.

BV: What areas of Wine do you like to work on?

Jukka: I have been working mostly on DOS lately, but I'm starting to get really bored on that stuff. I guess I would like to work on some part of Wine where Wine is missing functionality that is needed by a large number of programs, but I guess I'm just too lazy to think of any good candidate. Besides, I mostly have games as test programs and I really only need Wine for game playing purposes, so that might bias me towards certain kinds of areas...

BV: How does the DOS architecture differ from something like Windows 98? Is it possible to share any functionality, such as file handling, with the rest of Wine?

Jukka: Well, I guess you already know that Windows 95, 98 and ME really are based on DOS. There are quite a few surprising similarities and almost all new features in DOS7 really map almost directly to Win32 API. Wine DOS emulation naturally calls Win32 API so dependencies are inverted when compared to original Windows versions.

A better source for sharing functionality would probably be Windows 3.1 or Win16, which is much closer to DOS and DPMI and actually contains DOS as part of the API. Wine DOS emulation currently shares lots of basic stuff with Win16 and I think that is a rather good thing.

BV: Does that include the loader code?

Jukka: No. DOS .exe and .com programs are mapped into memory using a separate loader code that has nothing to do with Win16 programs.

BV: Have you ever looked at any other DOS emulator projects, such as dosemu, to see how something is supposed to work?

Jukka: I have looked at them, but I have found out that there is little I could learn from them.

BV: Why does Wine need it's own DOS implementation if there's other emulators available for Linux?

Jukka: This is a good question. I have thought about that question a lot and this is what I have concluded:

  • Windows can execute DOS programs pretty well. Wine should be able to do the same.
  • Wine DOS emulator uses Windows API as much as possible. This means that emulator itself is smaller than separate emulators, it is based on code that has been tested more widely and it integrates well with other parts of Wine.
  • Win16 support requires almost full DOS emulation. If separate DOS emulator was used, either code would need to be duplicated or DOS emulator would need to be embedded into Wine, which is something they have not been designed for.
  • If you fix DOS emulation bug in Wine, it is highly likely that Win16 bug gets fixed, too. Because a large amount of DOS emulation code is also used by Win16 code, it gets tested by applications that are rarely used with pure DOS emulators.
  • You need to install and configure only a single application to get DOS and Windows support instead of having to do the same for two separate applications.

BV: One thing that appeared this year was "winedos". What is that?

Jukka: Winedos is a separate DLL that contains most of the DOS emulation code in Wine. It has actually been around for a few years, already, but I have worked on it only for the last half a year or something. It doesn't really have a large impact on DOS support. However, it allows Wine processes to only load DOS support code into memory if the process really needs it.

BV: Does that mean Wine gets a performance improvement? Or are there enough other bottlenecks that it doesn't matter?

Jukka: Starting Win32 processes is a bit faster this way and they require slightly less memory. However, I don't think either of these effects improves Wine performance noticeably. Still, if all rarely used subsystems use lazy initialization, we do get significant performance improvements.

BV: Will a compile time option be added to not include support for DOS? Or would that be a bad thing?

Jukka: If Wine is compiled without Win16 support, I don't think DOS support should be included, either. So the same configure option that disables Win16 should also prevent building of winedos DLL.

Another DOS support related issue is that winedos DLL can be compiled without DOS support. This is used on those i386 platforms that do not support running real mode programs. Win16 support still requires winedos DLL but those parts of the DLL that are related to real mode things won't be compiled in. It would probably be a good idea to be able to switch into this mode even on those platforms that do support real mode programs because it would make testing that code compiles correctly on all platforms a lot easier.

BV: What are you trying to accomplish by moving all of the DOS support stuff to winedos?

Jukka: The reason for this is based on a few simple observations:

  • Most Win32 application have no need for DOS emulation.
  • Non-i386 platforms should not need DOS emulation.
  • DOS emulation code has lots of interdependencies but it really needs very little from Wine in addition to plain Win32 API.

BV: Why is this built as a library and not a completely separate executable?

Jukka: Some Win32 applications call DOS functions using VxDs which would be quite an awkward thing to do if DOS functions were in a separate executable. That is probably the only technical reason why winedos is DLL and not an executable.

BV: A lot of your patches mention moving int21 functionality into winedos. What is int21 and how many more functions need to be moved?

Jukka: DOS services are called using processor interrupt instructions. That is why these services are called as "INTxx" where xx is hexadecimal number. INT21 is one of those services and it is probably the most important and complicated of them all. It actually contains as much code as all the other interrupt services combined.

There are about 20-30 INT21 subfunctions that still need to be moved to winedos. This means that about a thousand lines of code need to be reviewed and probably mostly rewritten because so many DOS subfunctions have been found out to be incomplete and buggy. And, after that there are still a few other files that look likely candidates for moving to winedos DLL.

BV: Twenty to thirty really doesn't sound that bad. Will that take a long time? Are there any hard ones left?

Jukka: These int21 functions that have not been moved to winedos are the most difficult ones to move. They either use ntdll functions that are not exported or their implementation is incorrect and they would need to be rewritten.

Assuming I can move 50-100 lines per patch and it takes week or two weeks per patch it would take something between two months and a year to move all those functions. It is or course possible that if I get too bored with these functions I just copy them directly to winedos and add lots of FIXME comments. This would be much faster, anyway.

BV: How have you been testing these functions?

First of all, existing implementation is reviewed and compared to available documentation (Ralf Brown's interrupt list or MSDN, for example). This catches a large amount of bugs. If something needs more checking, I search for source code that uses those functions, which is unfortunately available for only a small amount of functions. For a part of these functions, I have DOS programs that make use of them and these functions are the only functions that I can say to have been properly tested.

BV: Alexandre just committed support for DPMI IRQ handling. What does DPMI provide?

Jukka: Working IRQ handling is needed by any DPMI program that uses timer IRQs for precision timing, polls keyboard (because this needs asynchronous events that are handled by the same code as IRQs), installs mouse callback handler or wants to use soundblaster emulation. So, it is possible that quite a few DPMI programs (games especially) would start to work better when IRQs are properly supported.

I have some hopes that after IRQ handling has been fixed and after VESA support has been tweaked a little, most DPMI based programs would work under Wine. However, DOS4GW is still a problem because I have no idea why it doesn't work. Fortunately there are free DOS4GW replacements available, like DOS32A, which seem to work quite well.

BV: What is DOS4GW?

Jukka: DOS4GW is a 32-bit DOS extender. It allows DOS programs to be executed in 32-bit protected mode which makes DOS programs faster and a lot easier to program. There are other DOS extenders that can do this and programs executed under Wine or Windows may also directly call DPMI (DOS Protected Mode Interface) services via int31 without using any extenders.

What makes DOS4GW important is that, as far as I know, it is the most popular DOS extender. There is a vast amount of DOS programs that would run under Wine without any special hacks if only DOS4GW could be made to work. Right now, you need to figure out whether a program is using DOS4GW and if it is, it must be executed using some other DOS extender.

BV: Alexandre just started moving Win16 support to winevdm. Have you worked on any of that at all?

Jukka: I fixed a bunch of bugs caused by winevdm rework. It is possible that parts of winedos DLL could be moved into winevdm program, but as mentioned above, some Win32 applications really need to call to DOS services and I don't see how winevdm would easily support those use cases. My plan is to first separate DOS support into winedos and then think about what to do with winevdm. Or most likely let others think about that, because I'm not that keen on another DOS rework.

BV: Eric has recently done a lot of work on wineconsole. Has this improved DOS support at all?

Jukka: Curses support makes it finally possible to run DOS console applications in regular Unix terminals. You really cannot tell DOS nethack from native Linux nethack, any more. Unless you notice that you cannot use line drawing characters in DOS. This is actually something that could be fixed quite easily by using VT100 alternate character set or by using Unicode-curses, which combined with UTF8-xterm would make curses wineconsole show all DOS characters.

BV: Is there anything you wish Wine could do, but can't?

Jukka: I have quite a few games that I cannot run with Wine. Even WineX can't run them. Having them running under Wine is something I would like to see. Unfortunately, most problems are due to copy protection schemes which seems to confirm my belief that copy protection only hurts those who play by the rules.

The most annoying thing right now is that Wine does not work well with window managers. I have all the time problems with keyboard focus because of this. The current managed window code would probably fix this problem, but it would only cause other problems because window managers just cannot provide the decorations needed by many Windows applications.

And I really wish that I would be able to minimize full screen Wine applications. Again, this is something where Wine really should cooperate with window managers.

BV: So, if you could add one feature to Wine, what would it be?

Jukka: I have been toying with an idea of adding stubs for all the DLLs and functions that come with Windows XP and 2003 to Wine. Not a really useful feature, I'm afraid, but I would finally see what new functions those two really add.

BV: I've gotta ask about the RoboCup team. That's some pretty hard stuff - AI, autonomous control systems, not to mention robotics. Do you have any experience working on anything like that?

Jukka: I have worked mostly on software parts of the project. I guess that is where my expertise lays. But that does not mean that I have not had my finger literally in almost every other part of the project. There is one place where I have actually had some previous experience. Pattern recognition code is quite similar to code that is used in particle physics for fitting particle trajectories, a thing I always find rather curious.

BV: Thanks for the interview!

Jukka: You're welcome.