29 Jul
2010
29 Jul
'10
2:32 p.m.
Hi,
I've been in talks with a Hebrew translator for some time now and I'd
like to have Wine being able to start doing more RTL stuff.
I'm looking for example at http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1158
If I run an English winmine.exe on an Arabic box (thanks to the testbot)
the main window will shows as normal LTR window layout with the menu's
left justified as well.
So eventhough the locale is set to Arabic it doesn't turn 'everything'
into RTL.
If we don't change the resource files for the RTL languages, that same
logic will give us LTR Wine applications or am I wrong here?
--
Cheers,
Paul.
29 Jul
29 Jul
6:13 p.m.
Paul Vriens <paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com> writes:
I've been in talks with a Hebrew translator for
some time now and I'd
like to have Wine being able to start doing more RTL stuff.
I'm looking for example at http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1158
If I run an English winmine.exe on an Arabic box (thanks to the
testbot) the main window will shows as normal LTR window layout with
the menu's left justified as well.
So eventhough the locale is set to Arabic it doesn't turn 'everything'
into RTL.
If we don't change the resource files for the RTL languages, that same
logic will give us LTR Wine applications or am I wrong here?
That depends on the situation. In some cases it can be set globally
through the version resources, in other cases it will have to be set on
an individual resource basis, or specified directly in the code.
I don't think we are quite ready to enable RTL globally though, it's
still pretty broken. I'm currently trying to improve it.
--
Alexandre Julliard
julliard(a)winehq.org
6:16 p.m.
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Alexandre Julliard <julliard(a)winehq.org> wrote:
Paul Vriens <paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com>
writes:
Perhaps it's a good candidate for the 1.4 release criteria?
--
-Austin
I've been in talks with a Hebrew translator
for some time now and I'd
like to have Wine being able to start doing more RTL stuff.
I'm looking for example at http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1158
If I run an English winmine.exe on an Arabic box (thanks to the
testbot) the main window will shows as normal LTR window layout with
the menu's left justified as well.
So eventhough the locale is set to Arabic it doesn't turn 'everything'
into RTL.
If we don't change the resource files for the RTL languages, that same
logic will give us LTR Wine applications or am I wrong here?
That depends on the situation. In some cases it can be set globally
through the version resources, in other cases it will have to be set on
an individual resource basis, or specified directly in the code.
I don't think we are quite ready to enable RTL globally though, it's
still pretty broken. I'm currently trying to improve it.
30 Jul
30 Jul
6:54 a.m.
On 07/29/2010 08:13 PM, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Paul Vriens<paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com>
writes:
When you say 'globally' do you mean everything running under (one)
wineserver?
As said, I guess our Wine programs should be RTL if a user is running
with the appropriate locale. Other programs should run RTL or LTR
depending how they are coded.
I've been in talks with a Hebrew translator
for some time now and I'd
like to have Wine being able to start doing more RTL stuff.
I'm looking for example at http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1158
If I run an English winmine.exe on an Arabic box (thanks to the
testbot) the main window will shows as normal LTR window layout with
the menu's left justified as well.
So eventhough the locale is set to Arabic it doesn't turn 'everything'
into RTL.
If we don't change the resource files for the RTL languages, that same
logic will give us LTR Wine applications or am I wrong here?
That depends on the situation. In some cases it can be set globally
through the version resources, in other cases it will have to be set on
an individual resource basis, or specified directly in the code.
I don't think we are quite ready to enable RTL globally though, it's
still pretty broken. I'm currently trying to improve it.
Great, I saw the commits before I saw this email. Thanks.
--
Cheers,
Paul.
8:02 a.m.
Paul Vriens <paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com> writes:
On 07/29/2010 08:13 PM, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
No, I mean globally for a process, this is always per-process. If you
put the magic string in the version resources the whole process is RTL,
making all the windows automatically WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL and mirroring all
the UI. That's the correct approach for Wine builtin apps, once
WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL works properly.
--
Alexandre Julliard
julliard(a)winehq.org
That depends on the situation. In some cases it
can be set globally
through the version resources, in other cases it will have to be set on
an individual resource basis, or specified directly in the code.
When you say 'globally' do you mean everything running under (one)
wineserver?
8:33 a.m.
On 07/30/2010 10:02 AM, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Paul Vriens<paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com>
writes:
Ok, thanks for that explanation. Do you know if dialog resources also
inherit WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL?
After reading http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb688119.aspx
("Activating Mirroring for Dialog Resources") it's not very clear to me
(my thought is that it doesn't inherit).
--
Cheers,
Paul.
On 07/29/2010 08:13 PM, Alexandre Julliard
wrote:
No, I mean globally for a process, this is always per-process. If you
put the magic string in the version resources the whole process is RTL,
making all the windows automatically WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL and mirroring all
the UI. That's the correct approach for Wine builtin apps, once
WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL works properly.
That depends on the situation. In some cases it
can be set globally
through the version resources, in other cases it will have to be set on
an individual resource basis, or specified directly in the code.
When you say 'globally' do you mean everything running under (one)
wineserver?
24 Sep
24 Sep
8:48 p.m.
On 07/30/2010 10:02 AM, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Paul Vriens<paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com>
writes:
Hi Alexandre,
I see you made great steps in getting the RTL stuff working. The Hebrew
version of native winmine shows the menu's right-aligned now!
What are the plans/ideas for the Wine builtin programs with respect to
RTL languages? I mean, how are we going to make the distinction between
LTR or RTL when builtin apps are run?
--
Cheers,
Paul.
On 07/29/2010 08:13 PM, Alexandre Julliard
wrote:
No, I mean globally for a process, this is always per-process. If you
put the magic string in the version resources the whole process is RTL,
making all the windows automatically WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL and mirroring all
the UI. That's the correct approach for Wine builtin apps, once
WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL works properly.
That depends on the situation. In some cases it
can be set globally
through the version resources, in other cases it will have to be set on
an individual resource basis, or specified directly in the code.
When you say 'globally' do you mean everything running under (one)
wineserver?
9 p.m.
Paul Vriens <paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com> writes:
I see you made great steps in getting the RTL stuff
working. The
Hebrew version of native winmine shows the menu's right-aligned now!
What are the plans/ideas for the Wine builtin programs with respect to
RTL languages? I mean, how are we going to make the distinction
between LTR or RTL when builtin apps are run?
The apps that are ready for it will have to call SetProcessDefaultLayout
when appropriate. I don't think we want to use the version resource for
this, the mechanism is badly designed and would be painful to use.
--
Alexandre Julliard
julliard(a)winehq.org
29 Sep
29 Sep
3:43 p.m.
On 24/09/10 23:00, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Paul Vriens<paul.vriens.wine(a)gmail.com>
writes:
If I might recommend something, I suggest not to use
SetProcessDefaultLayout at all. Just localize whatever needs
localization through the resources and that's it. Even for menus, the
resources have an option to define the menus as RTL.
The automatic mirroring process is, simply put, a broken idea, badly
implemented (I'm talking about Windows here, not Wine). I'm not even
sure that the Windows built-in applications use this hack, but even if
some do, that is no reason to go down that path.
Just my 2cents
Shachar
--
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com
I see you made great steps in getting the RTL
stuff working. The
Hebrew version of native winmine shows the menu's right-aligned now!
What are the plans/ideas for the Wine builtin programs with respect to
RTL languages? I mean, how are we going to make the distinction
between LTR or RTL when builtin apps are run?
The apps that are ready for it will have to call SetProcessDefaultLayout
when appropriate. I don't think we want to use the version resource for
this, the mechanism is badly designed and would be painful to use.
4:21 p.m.
Shachar Shemesh <shachar(a)shemesh.biz> writes:
If I might recommend something, I suggest not to use
SetProcessDefaultLayout at all. Just localize whatever needs
localization through the resources and that's it. Even for menus, the
resources have an option to define the menus as RTL.
Most applications are not dialogs, so you can't mirror the application
window through resources. For instance with notepad, you'd most likely
want the edit control to be RTL too, not just the main menu.
--
Alexandre Julliard
julliard(a)winehq.org
5:51 p.m.
On 29/09/10 18:21, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Shachar Shemesh<shachar(a)shemesh.biz> writes:
Did I mention that the automatic mirroring is a broken idea implemented
in a broken way already?
At the moment, the edit control does not even properly support BiDi. I
do not have a Hebrew localized version of Windows on hand, so it's a bit
hard for me to check how that works, but even if we had a BiDi text
control, the only effect this localization would have is to set the
default direction of the control. The user would then switch it anyways.
Aside from notepad, for which the difference is very small, and most
people would regard a default LTR control as the correct behavior
anyway, what other applications are you concerned over?
Shachar
--
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com
If I might recommend something, I suggest not to
use
SetProcessDefaultLayout at all. Just localize whatever needs
localization through the resources and that's it. Even for menus, the
resources have an option to define the menus as RTL.
Most applications are not dialogs, so you can't mirror the application
window through resources. For instance with notepad, you'd most likely
want the edit control to be RTL too, not just the main menu.
6:25 p.m.
Shachar Shemesh <shachar(a)shemesh.biz> writes:
Did I mention that the automatic mirroring is a broken
idea
implemented in a broken way already?
What do you consider broken about it?
Aside from notepad, for which the difference is very
small, and most
people would regard a default LTR control as the correct behavior
anyway, what other applications are you concerned over?
Pretty much all of them. For example, Wordpad has combo boxes in the
toolbars, those won't be RTL without changing the process layout.
Winefile and Regedit have treeviews that would need mirroring, etc.
--
Alexandre Julliard
julliard(a)winehq.org
7:02 p.m.
On 29/09/10 20:25, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
First, I'm not sure what the proper way to RTLize regedit should be. See
above.
Less specifically, however, all controls that have BiDi settings can
have those settings set through the resource for that control, without
setting it for the entire application. In those cases that the layout is
not control by a resource, we are pretty much in deep #!@$!@# anyways
because of the reasons stated above. Whether it is Yaron doing the
localization or someone else, they must have some way to change the
layout in a way that is not merely mirroring, and whatever way that is,
it will require being able to tell the system which controls need RTL
and which don't.
Shachar
P.s.
I am going over the built in wine applications, and would like to point
out for whoever is thinking of localizing "clock" that clocks in RTL
speaking regions still rotate in the same direction.
--
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com
Shachar Shemesh<shachar(a)shemesh.biz> writes:
Everything. The concept is that a RTL layout is just a LTR layout
reversed. This is almost never the case. Almost always, some controls
need to still be LTR (URL edit control, tree view of, basically, Latin
registry keys, etc.) Defaulting to a mirrored UI means you need to base
your redesign on something substantially different than the original,
which I do not see as a good move.
Microsoft's implementation of this idea is just as crappy as the core
concept. The UI often contains images that are part of it. In order to
keep the thing even slightly okay, Windows automatically mirrors every
image (yes, EVERY image) displayed into a DC which has the RTL attribute
set. The MSDN page discussing this has hilarious images of the Microsoft
logo reversed. Their OFFICIAL recommendation is to create localized
Hebrew/Arabic resources of the images, which are mirrored at the source,
so that after the UI second mirroring they turn out okay. Two wrongs
don't make a right indeed.
All in all, it is my experience that starting with the LTR layout
requires less work and is less error prone than starting with a mirrored
LTR layout.
This aside from the problems I've mentioned before on this list, of the
utter stupidity of having some windows on the same desktop with a close
button on the left and some on the right. I know no one who finds this
convenient.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't implement this (except
the window decoration part, that i think we should not implement). I'm
just saying that I would rather if Wine's built in applications not
participate in this madness.
Did I mention that the automatic mirroring is a
broken idea
implemented in a broken way already?
What do you consider broken about it?
Aside from
notepad, for which the difference is very small, and most
people would regard a default LTR control as the correct behavior
anyway, what other applications are you concerned over?
Pretty much all of them. For example, Wordpad has combo boxes in the
toolbars, those won't be RTL without changing the process layout.
Winefile and Regedit have treeviews that would need mirroring, etc.
7:52 p.m.
Shachar Shemesh <shachar(a)shemesh.biz> writes:
Less specifically, however, all controls that have
BiDi settings can
have those settings set through the resource for that control, without
setting it for the entire application. In those cases that the layout
is not control by a resource, we are pretty much in deep #!@$!@#
anyways because of the reasons stated above. Whether it is Yaron doing
the localization or someone else, they must have some way to change
the layout in a way that is not merely mirroring, and whatever way
that is, it will require being able to tell the system which controls
need RTL and which don't.
You can't do that in resources, apart from simple dialogs. Many controls
are created directly in the code, so you need to change the source.
Whether this is to set the process-wide layout or to set WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL
individually on appropriate windows will depend on the app, but it needs
code changes either way.
--
Alexandre Julliard
julliard(a)winehq.org
9:39 p.m.
On 29/09/10 21:52, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
You can't do that in resources, apart from simple dialogs. Many controls
are created directly in the code, so you need to change the source.
Whether this is to set the process-wide layout or to set WS_EX_LAYOUTRTL
individually on appropriate windows will depend on the app, but it needs
code changes either way.
Okay. No dispute about that.
Shachar
--
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com
8 Aug
8 Aug
5:55 a.m.
Paul Vriens wrote:
Hi,
I've been in talks with a Hebrew translator for some time now and I'd
like to have Wine being able to start doing more RTL stuff.
I'm looking for example at http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1158
If I run an English winmine.exe on an Arabic box (thanks to the
testbot) the main window will shows as normal LTR window layout with
the menu's left justified as well.
So eventhough the locale is set to Arabic it doesn't turn 'everything'
into RTL.
If we don't change the resource files for the RTL languages, that same
logic will give us LTR Wine applications or am I wrong here?
An English app running on a Hebrew Windows does not automatically get
entirely reversed. There are two parts to this question, and I believe
that Wine should handle those parts differently.
One part are the Windows decorations - close button, minimize, maximize,
etc. Under Windows, if an application is reversed, so are these. I
believe Wine should not attempt to replicate this behavior for the
following reasons:
* It is a broken design decision. Its implications are that on the
same desktop, some windows have their close button on the left,
others on the right. In my experience, this does nothing to
enhance the user's experience.
* It is difficult to implement. The decorations on Wine windows are
drawn by the X window manager. We would have to convince each
window manager to reverse the window decorations on our say so. I
am not aware of such an API existing, which means lots and lots
and lots of bugs.
* As an aggregate of the above two - the window decorations are,
today, not defined by Wine to be part of the "windows experience",
and as such, if the Windows behavior is broken, we need not
replicate it.
The other part is the actual content of the window. Here there is a need
to support exactly what Windows is doing, as that is the API. As a side
note, I'll add that I think that is broken too. Mirroring should not be
done automatically, and reading the MSDN article that Dmitry references
just shows how many ways it can, indeed, break. That said, Wine did
commit to being bug-compatible with Windows, so that part should,
*eventually*, be implemented.
I do agree with Alexandre that there are many things more pressing on
the BiDi front to handle.
Shachar
--
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com
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16 comments
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Shachar Shemesh